So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. Other arguments, I think are bad, the claim that Mary had to be immaculately conceived because Jesus could not be conceived within a woman who is sinful. That sums it up. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. Jesus Christ did not inherit original sin, but he became sin which is why the father had to turn away from him. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. All right. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. Okay. Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. Im really enjoying this. 0. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? The question for Joseph-. One, the sole non-falsifiable and fallible authority of the Roman Catholic church, sola ecclesia, which teaches these Marian Dogmas versus a sole infallible authority of scripture sola scriptura, which contradicts them. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . I dont know. So it would-. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. Lets see here. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. How would you treat that thing? Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. And see, heres the thing. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. Good to hear from you again. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. Thank you very much, Steve. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? All right. But I think Steve would agree the word adelphos typically means a person has the same biological father and mother and of course, Steve doesnt believe that because he believes Jesus has no biological father. Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Yeah, sounds good. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. So at an early age, I think about around age three. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? Yeah, no, no, no. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. So it still fits semantically. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. And if you look into church history, these dogmas were not all agreed upon. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. We have to remember that. In fact, Josephus recorded a Zechariah being killed in the temple thirty-five years after the crucifixion (Jewish War 4:5:4). Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. Nice to have you. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. That would be one. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Facebook Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. Yeah. Yeah. The relevance would be that you are using it. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). Yeah. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. A concrete example of this would be sacrifice. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Sure. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. When Ive seen people in the chat say things like, Wouldnt you make your mother perfect? I dont like that argument. Thank you very much, Trent. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? And if you take a look at the origin of all three of these dogmas, they all come from either nastic like text or apocryphal literature or [inaudible 01:29:53] literature, like the Protoevangelium of James and elsewhere. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. And the fact that Trent is saying that the holy family would not need to apply to that, hes imputing his Catholic theology into the text. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. Anything else you might disagree with? Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. Yeah. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. This question comes from agoyforJesus. So then it isnt literally saying every single human has sinned or every man has sinned. But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. FEIN: 47-5459301. I run morning podcasts here on locals. So probably honestly that one. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. Yeah. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Oh wow. It doesnt even imply that. All right. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. We ought to do it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. So Im well aware of that. I mean, aside from the dogmas, I think one of the ones that make me cringe is that Catholics worship Mary, where every time I hear that, Im like And I brought it up, but I explained I came about it through a different way. . Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. Otherwise things leading up to it, we could interpret them either in a broader sense. It would always demand that. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. United States. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. No. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . Yeah, sure. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? Theres a lot of people in scripture including Joseph that doesnt say anything that she gave birth to anybody and others that he didnt give birth to older step siblings of Jesus, so thats an argument from silence. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. You mean the son of John? Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? So whenever you are ready, Ill click the timer. So its not saying that he died. Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. No, it doesnt. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. They were both Catholic. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. Okay. Same with Matthew 28. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. Heres my thought on that. It doesnt mention sin there. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. Okay. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. Okay, Trent. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Do it, or dont do it. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. Yeah. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. Good day, Steve. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. Moreover, there was diversity of thought among Jews until the second century after Christ over what constituted the Hebrew canon. [It undermines] the theory that there was a single canon by the late first century C.E. (The Scrolls and Biblical Traditions, 41-43). Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. Yeah. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. Oh, absolutely. This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? No, it doesnt. In fact, when it is used in the Septuagint to talk about people who have different fathers or mothers, it is only ever used to describe people in the case of half siblings, of having different fathers, not different mothers . I thought about writing a book on-. She would have to have a heavenly body. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. Shameless plug. In Speaking for the Unborn, Dr. Steven Christie offers very clear, convincing, and often witty answers to almost every possible argument in favor of abortion. The Pharisees did not have unique doctrinal authority over all other Jews since, Jesus said the Pharisees shared the seat of Moses with the scribes (Matt. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. Sure. 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